Mass surveillance is worse than five years ago, and it’s cool to think about the initial disclosures and then fast forward to this interview. Also, if you haven’t seen the documentary Citizenfour, I recommend watching it.
Mehdi Hasan: I’m Mehdi Hasan, welcome to Deconstructed.
My guest today is the NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden. Yes, the man himself, who became a global household name almost exactly five years ago.
So I started off by asking Edward Snowden: “Is privacy dead?”
ES: No, and I think this is the thing that is really taken out of context by politicians and all of these corporate powers that are working to use that as a justification to extend and further the abuses that we’ve seen in the last decade or so. When you look at the polling and all of these different issues and you ask young people, particularly, you know: Do you care about privacy? They actually seem to care more than older generations because this is affects their lives everyday. They understand what it means to make a mistake, have someone with a smartphone in the room and then have it haunt you for the rest of your time in high school or college or whatever.
There is this feeling of powerlessness that’s surrounding all of us every day on this issue, because we see that we are being abused. People openly admit that they’re abusing us. You know, Mark Zuckerberg in front of Congress is talking about this quite unashamedly.
MH: Your enemies here in the U.S. have accused you of being ultra-critical of the. U.S. government but soft on the Russian government, on President Vladimir Putin. And yet in March, I saw that you were on Twitter suggesting there had been vote-rigging in the Russian presidential election. You even called on Russians to “demand justice.” More recently you called the Russian government’s attempt to crack down on the messaging app Telegram “totalitarian.”
Now, from where I’m sitting, those were pretty bold, ballsy, principled moves by you, but were they also foolish moves? Aren’t you risking pissing off Putin and him then sending you back into the U.S. in a fit of rage?
ES: You know, yeah there’s definitely risks involved. And it’s not a smart thing to do. Every one of my lawyers tells me it’s a mistake to keep criticizing the Russian government. They say: Look, you’ve done enough. But that’s not what I’m here for, right? If I wanted to be safe, I never would have left Hawaii. I believe that this world can be better. I believe that this world should be better, but it’s not going to get better unless we make it better. And that requires risk, that requires hard work, that ultimately might require sacrifice.
MH: Where do you think you’ll be another five years from now?
ES: I don’t know. I honestly don’t know. There have been so many times, over the last five years, where I’ve been sure that things were going to change, that people understood, there were days I was sure that nothing was ever going to change, and it’s status quo forever. But it’s that uncertainty that actually gives me optimism, that gives me hope.
So many people look at the world today, they look at how broken and ruined things are, and they are just disempowered and lost. But what I want people to focus on is the fact that things changed, right. And if they can change for the worse, they can change for the better. And the only reason the world is changing for the worse is because bad people are working to make it happen that way. And if more good people are organizing, if we’re talking about this stuff, if we’re willing to draw lines that we will not allow people to cross without moving us out of the way, the pendulum will swing, and I’ll be home sooner than you think.